Blu-Ray S550 audio output

[megarap09]

Hi,
I'm new to the blu-ray experience, but a deal at Best-Buy made me jump in and get a Sony S550. I knew from the beginning I needed an 7.1 analog out capable player as my other equipment is older - and for now I can't change it (financial reasons...).
So I have a Sammy DLP - HLP 5063 with only one HDMI input and an Harman Kardon AVR 435 receiver - also no HD capability or HDMI inputs - but does have the 6/8 channel direct inputs.
As well - an Athena 7.1 speakers system with the AS300 sub.
I hooked up yesterday with 4 pairs of RCA audio and with an HDMI switch the Blu-ray and the HD-PVR box - to the TV.

From start - I only had standard DVD to play - so it's "half" the experience for now.
However, even though I read and set the Audio settings as suggested in different forums, the subwoofer would remain "red" - as in no signal...
As well - the surround back also does not output anything.

In the test screen - the surround back emmitted a tone - but the subwoofer was not even there (in the test).
(when I switched back to regular HDTV with an DD program - the sub went "green" right away)

The DVD I was watching was LOTR - and put it on the DTS-ES 6.1 mode.

I know I have to do the Blu-Ray disc test - I'll do that in the evening - but meanwhile any hint would be great.

Another side question - my DLP being a 720p native resolution - on the BD video settings output - should I set it 720p or Auto..or something else?

Thanks in advance.

[MrBoylan]

Originally Posted by megarap09

Hi,
I'm new to the blu-ray experience, but a deal at Best-Buy made me jump in and get a Sony S550. I knew from the beginning I needed an 7.1 analog out capable player as my other equipment is older - and for now I can't change it (financial reasons...).
So I have a Sammy DLP - HLP 5063 with only one HDMI input and an Harman Kardon AVR 435 receiver - also no HD capability or HDMI inputs - but does have the 6/8 channel direct inputs.
As well - an Athena 7.1 speakers system with the AS300 sub.
I hooked up yesterday with 4 pairs of RCA audio and with an HDMI switch the Blu-ray and the HD-PVR box - to the TV.

From start - I only had standard DVD to play - so it's "half" the experience for now.
However, even though I read and set the Audio settings as suggested in different forums, the subwoofer would remain "red" - as in no signal...
As well - the surround back also does not output anything.

In the test screen - the surround back emmitted a tone - but the subwoofer was not even there (in the test).
(when I switched back to regular HDTV with an DD program - the sub went "green" right away)

The DVD I was watching was LOTR - and put it on the DTS-ES 6.1 mode.

I know I have to do the Blu-Ray disc test - I'll do that in the evening - but meanwhile any hint would be great.

Another side question - my DLP being a 720p native resolution - on the BD video settings output - should I set it 720p or Auto..or something else?

Thanks in advance.

The subwoofer output you should be getting, though it's level is probably 10-15 dB lower than the other channels - this is done to prevent overload of the signal during analog transmission and this is how the subwoofer channel is handled by most Blu-ray and DVD player with multi-channel analog inputs.

Look in your receiver's manual to see if it has a +10dB or +15dB boost setting specifically for the subwoofer channel of the multi-channel analog inputs. Most receivers do have this setting. From a quick browse of your manual, I believe you can adjust the levels of all speakers on a per-input basis so you should be able to boost the bass 10 or 15 dB in the "Channel Adjust" menu. See page 28-29 of your manual for more details. Your manual is here:

http://manuals.harman.com/HK/HOM/Own...AL%20(web).pdf

As for there being no rear channel information from a DVD, that is not surprising. No DVDs are 7.1, most are 5.1 which would have no rear channel output - only side surround in your specific set-up. Some DTS titles can do a sixth channel via the "ES" option, but extracting this rear channel is not in the core DTS processing spec (it's an "extension") so this would require that the player be able to decode these DTS extensions internally. I believe this Sony player is akin to the Panasonic BD55 and BD80 in that its DTS implementation is something called "DTS-HD Master Audio Essential" - this processor is capable of decoding DTS, DTS-HD HR and DTS-HD MA but it is *NOT* capable of decoding DTS-ES (6.1) nor DTS 24/96. The Sony player's DTS decoder only sees the legacy 5.1 channel mix.

What many people do to get around this limitation is use the multi-channel analog output for Blu-rays, but use the fiberoptic or coax S/PDIF digital output for listening to CDs and DVDs. Assuming your receiver can decode DTS-ES, then you will get your rear channel information that way from the LOTR DVD (connected via fiberoptic).

Hope that helps.

Regards,

-Chris

[megarap09]

Hi Chris,
Thanks for the input.
First a small correction - my AVR is the 430 model...but pretty much the same with 435 which I mentioned.
I did the boost on the LFE - I put it on +10dB for now.

I also connected the optical sound back (as I had with the original DVD player) for playing SD DVD....but I might have to do another change because when I put for ex the Beatles "Help" DVD - with the DTS 5.1 track - and of course changed the audio priority of the S550 to coax/optical...what I got was...one of the Logic 7 decoding from the AVR (the proprietary HK DSPs) (and the Sub was working this time)...Was it because even though outputting to the optical...the Sony was still decoding internally...and sending that over the optical??? Otherwise the AVR should have gotten the digital track and decode it to its DTS-Neo6....or not?

The other surprise was that on my first Blu-Ray - the latest Fast and Furious - even though it said DTS-HD Master Audio on the menu - when it played, I could hear again only 5.1 (the Sub was indeed working as you said)...absolutely no rear surround. The picture was excellent, the audio - from the 5.1 was fantastic (never had that good of experience before)....but why not the surround back? Also, when I checked during the movie - pressing the on screen display - it said also DTS MA 3/2.1 48kHz....so DTS HD doesn't mean by default 7.1? Or am I missing something?


Thanks

[MrBoylan]

Originally Posted by megarap09

Hi Chris,
Thanks for the input.
First a small correction - my AVR is the 430 model...but pretty much the same with 435 which I mentioned.
I did the boost on the LFE - I put it on +10dB for now.

If you have your speakers set to SMALL in the player, then +15dB might be the correct setting as most players reduce the subwoofer level by an additional 5 dB in order to "make room" for the redirected bass from the main channels. If your speakers are set to large in the player, then +10dB should work. So, I'm not clear - did making this adjustment allow you to start hearing bass from the subwoofer on the analog outputs or no?

I also connected the optical sound back (as I had with the original DVD player) for playing SD DVD....but I might have to do another change because when I put for ex the Beatles "Help" DVD - with the DTS 5.1 track - and of course changed the audio priority of the S550 to coax/optical...what I got was...one of the Logic 7 decoding from the AVR (the proprietary HK DSPs) (and the Sub was working this time)...Was it because even though outputting to the optical...the Sony was still decoding internally...and sending that over the optical??? Otherwise the AVR should have gotten the digital track and decode it to its DTS-Neo6....or not?

Sounds like you might have the "Dolby" and "DTS" settings to "Downmix/PCM" - make sure Dolby Digital is set to "Dolby Digital" and DTS is set to "DTS" on the player - this will get you the native soundtracks over S/PDIF digital. For DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD, the player will deliver regular DTS and Dolby Digital respectively (over S/PDIF digital). Also, make sure the DTS track is actually selected on the disc (not sure if it's the default on that particular title).

The other surprise was that on my first Blu-Ray - the latest Fast and Furious - even though it said DTS-HD Master Audio on the menu - when it played, I could hear again only 5.1 (the Sub was indeed working as you said)...absolutely no rear surround. The picture was excellent, the audio - from the 5.1 was fantastic (never had that good of experience before)....but why not the surround back? Also, when I checked during the movie - pressing the on screen display - it said also DTS MA 3/2.1 48kHz....so DTS HD doesn't mean by default 7.1? Or am I missing something?

Actually 7.1 channel soundtracks are still relatively uncommon, even on Blu-ray and F&F is not one of them. The problem with this is that on 5.1 channel Blu-ray Discs or DVDs, when you use the multi-channel analog outputs, many receivers (including yours, most likely) will not do any rear channel processing on the multi-channel analog inputs - they just pass along whatever is sent to them to the amplifier. So if nothing is output over the rears, then your rear speakers are silent.

But there are close to 100 Blu-rays available with some form of 7.1 sound (Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD, Dolby Digital Plus or multi-channel PCM). Here are a couple of forum posts which include info on Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD titles and how many channels they have:

• Blu-ray Discs with Dolby TrueHD (True HD) 5,1, 6.1 and 7.1 Surround Sound - BigPictureBigSound Forum: Movies, Home Theater, HDTV and Blu-ray Disc
• Blu-ray Discs with DTS-HD Master Audio (DTS-HD MA) 5.1, 6.1 and 7.1 Surround Sound

You can also go to Blu-raystats.com and filter for "Audio: 7.1" in the audio drop down (select :Audio: 7.1" and then click on the Filter button):

Statistics Page - Blu-rayStats.com

Thanks

You're welcome. Hope it helps.

-CB

[megarap09]

Originally Posted by MrBoylan

If you have your speakers set to SMALL in the player, then +15dB might be the correct setting as most players reduce the subwoofer level by an additional 5 dB in order to "make room" for the redirected bass from the main channels. If your speakers are set to large in the player, then +10dB should work. So, I'm not clear - did making this adjustment allow you to start hearing bass from the subwoofer on the analog outputs or no?

First - the max I can add/boost is +10dB...tried more...but that was the max.
I start hearing the bass from the sub - so I assume that previously it didn't get enough level/signal...so it appeared that it didn't get the signal at all.

Sounds like you might have the "Dolby" and "DTS" settings to "Downmix/PCM" - make sure Dolby Digital is set to "Dolby Digital" and DTS is set to "DTS" on the player - this will get you the native soundtracks over S/PDIF digital. For DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD, the player will deliver regular DTS and Dolby Digital respectively (over S/PDIF digital). Also, make sure the DTS track is actually selected on the disc (not sure if it's the default on that particular title).

Thanks, indeed that was the case - but those settings (Dolby and DTS set to "Downmix/PCM" were part of the recommended settings to hear the Blu-Ray over analog....Not sure if I have to change them every time I switch from a BD to DVD...
That change would come in addition to the Output Priority set to Coax/Optical vs. Multi Channel Analogue...Anyway loading LOTR this way I got finally back the DTS ES Discrete mode...all 8 speakers responding. Whew...
While the sound isn't any better then before (same optical - same AVR), the picture is definitely improved (still perhaps you would know the answer to my initial question related to output 720p or auto for display ona 720p DLP)

Actually 7.1 channel soundtracks are still relatively uncommon, even on Blu-ray and F&F is not one of them. The problem with this is that on 5.1 channel Blu-ray Discs or DVDs, when you use the multi-channel analog outputs, many receivers (including yours, most likely) will not do any rear channel processing on the multi-channel analog inputs - they just pass along whatever is sent to them to the amplifier. So if nothing is output over the rears, then your rear speakers are silent.

A bit disappointing...but what can I do...I still love my HK as it is...so I'll have to live with that.

But there are close to 100 Blu-rays available with some form of 7.1 sound (Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD, Dolby Digital Plus or multi-channel PCM). Here are a couple of forum posts which include info on Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD titles and how many channels they have:

• Blu-ray Discs with Dolby TrueHD (True HD) 5,1, 6.1 and 7.1 Surround Sound - BigPictureBigSound Forum: Movies, Home Theater, HDTV and Blu-ray Disc
• Blu-ray Discs with DTS-HD Master Audio (DTS-HD MA) 5.1, 6.1 and 7.1 Surround Sound

You can also go to Blu-raystats.com and filter for "Audio: 7.1" in the audio drop down (select :Audio: 7.1" and then click on the Filter button):

Statistics Page - Blu-rayStats.com


You're welcome. Hope it helps.

-CB

Thanks for the lists/links...I'll get one or two from the list and try them sometime over the next few days.

Meanwhile thanks for the help.

[MrBoylan]

Originally Posted by megarap09

(still perhaps you would know the answer to my initial question related to output 720p or auto for display ona 720p DLP)

If your set's native resolution is exactly 1280x720 pixels (check your manual), then it's probably best to set the output on the player to 720p. But some so-called "720p" sets actually have native resolutions of 1366x768 or 1024x768 in which case "auto" is probably best as it will pass a high res 1080i or 1080p signal to your display and let the display do the scaling.

Basically if you set the player to "auto" it will send the highest resolution signal that the display can accept as input for scaling on the TV. But if you set the player to 720p then it will simply do the scaling on the player, sending a 1280x720 pixel progressive signal to the TV for display without any additional processing.

Where it can get a little tricky is with upconverting standard def DVDs. With the player set to "auto" it will probably upconvert the DVD to 1080i, and then the display will scale that back down to 720p. Again, if your set's native DMD resolution is 1280x720 pixels, then you're better off only doing that upconversion processing once, instead of twice, which means setting the player to 720p.

You could always experiment with it both ways and see which you like better.
I'm glad you got the audio stuff figured out.

Regards,

-Chris

[megarap09]

Hi Chris,
A short question about the audio on analog.
You were mentioning that if a BD title is DTS-HD MA or DD TrueHD 5.1 - connecting over the analog outputs to receiver, there is no way I would get something from the rear surround speakers (as I have a full 7.1 set-up). I could only get the rears if I send over the optical and let the receiver apply one of the DSPs that expands the track to the rears as well.
I thought that the above is quite a "general" limitation/capability...However in an answer by BIslander on AVS - I was told that this problem is with Sony players only - while Panasonics, Pioneerss and the new Oppo, can output on their own 7.1 from a 5.1 DTSHD MA or DD True HD track over analog to the receiver....Just wondering if that's true....If it is it would a pretty important concern - or reason to try to swap the S550 for one of the mentioned players (unfortunately the price difference is pretty steep in % between the S550 and BDP 80, or the others - but if it means having ANY blu-ray disc (regardless if it's a 5.1 or 7.1 HD track) outputting all 7.1 over analog...it might be worth the change...)

Thanks

[MrBoylan]

Originally Posted by megarap09

Hi Chris,
A short question about the audio on analog.
You were mentioning that if a BD title is DTS-HD MA or DD TrueHD 5.1 - connecting over the analog outputs to receiver, there is no way I would get something from the rear surround speakers (as I have a full 7.1 set-up). I could only get the rears if I send over the optical and let the receiver apply one of the DSPs that expands the track to the rears as well.
I thought that the above is quite a "general" limitation/capability...However in an answer by BIslander on AVS - I was told that this problem is with Sony players only - while Panasonics, Pioneerss and the new Oppo, can output on their own 7.1 from a 5.1 DTSHD MA or DD True HD track over analog to the receiver....Just wondering if that's true....If it is it would a pretty important concern - or reason to try to swap the S550 for one of the mentioned players (unfortunately the price difference is pretty steep in % between the S550 and BDP 80, or the others - but if it means having ANY blu-ray disc (regardless if it's a 5.1 or 7.1 HD track) outputting all 7.1 over analog...it might be worth the change...)

Thanks

Hi,

The Sony isn't the only player that respects 5.1-channel soundtracks and outputs these as 5.1 channels over multi-channel analog (pretty sure the Samsung and LG players also behave this way). But it's true that some other players handle these differently, at least with DTS-HD soundtracks.

There is an option in the DTS-HD spec that allows a player to output 7.1-channels over PCM or analog from a DTS-HD 5.1 soundtrack. Without getting into the technical details, all it really does (in a nutshell) is duplicate the side surrounds to the rears. This creates a sort of phantom rear/side image that is somewhere between the side and rear speakers, effectively extending the depth of your surround soundstage. The Panasonic DMP-BD80 does take advantage of this option - what they call "amplifying" the 5.1 channel original DTS-HD soundtrack to 7.1. But they do not do the same with Dolby TrueHD 5.1 soundtracks, as I don't believe Dolby gives them the option to do so in the spec.

I can't speak to the Pioneer or OPPO players (yet). Though I do have one of each in for testing right now, neither has been set up yet in our 7.1 channel system with analog outputs. I usually do this later in the review process after running through all the video tests. But yes, if you like the idea that the player can generate its own rear channel information from a 5.1 channel soundtrack, then you might want to return the Sony which does not offer this feature. But again (at least on the Panasonic players), this only applies to DTS-HD 5.1 and 6.1 soundtracks *not* to multi-channel 5.1 PCM soundtracks nor to Dolby TrueHD 5.1 channel soundtracks. I suspect the same is true on the Pioneer and perhaps the OPPO players but I have not done enough testing on these to verify that.

Keep in mind that the OPPO and Pioneer players have no IPTV capabilities (Netflix, YouTube, Pandora, Amazon videos-on-demand), but then again neither does the Sony. Of these players, only the Panasonic has online streaming (YouTube, Amazon video on demand, and Picasa).

As I get deeper into testing the OPPO and Pioneer players, I'll know more, but you could probably already get the answer to that question from the respective owner's threads for the Pioneer and OPPO players on avsforum.

Regards,

-Chris

[megarap09]

Thanks for your input Chris.
Regarding DTS-HD vs DD TrueHD, I have to notice from the list and link you sent me that the overwhelming majority of HD 7.1 tracks are DTS based (I really wonder why Dolby didn't approach that almost at all - compared to DTS...but that's another issue).
As for the swap - I still have about two weeks (from the 30 days) left to return the player for another one. It would be unfortunate though, because I'm fairly pleased with the upscale capability and the Blu-Ray video and HD audio tracks (even if "only" 5.1).
We'll see..:-)

Sorin

[MrBoylan]

Originally Posted by megarap09

Thanks for your input Chris.
Regarding DTS-HD vs DD TrueHD, I have to notice from the list and link you sent me that the overwhelming majority of HD 7.1 tracks are DTS based (I really wonder why Dolby didn't approach that almost at all - compared to DTS...but that's another issue).
As for the swap - I still have about two weeks (from the 30 days) left to return the player for another one. It would be unfortunate though, because I'm fairly pleased with the upscale capability and the Blu-Ray video and HD audio tracks (even if "only" 5.1).
We'll see..:-)

Sorin

Yeah, I've also noticed that DTS seems to be pushing much harder for 7.1 than Dolby, but both can produce some excellent sounds. As for the Sony's upconversion capabilities, I don't have any first hand experience with that (so far they've refused to send us a player for review), but I've never seen it get top ratings in that department.

Overall, the Panasonic BD80 and the OPPO BDP-83 seem to be the players to beat for upconversion and overall performance. Some samples of the BD80 seem to suffer from a random (but temporary) freezing issue on Blu-ray, but it's not that frequent and it actually doesn't seem to affect all players.

As they say, pick your poison. Simplest solution might just be to upgrade your receiver to one that supports HDMI audio decoding. Did you know you can get a Denon receiver with full HDMI audio decoding and analog/digital transcoding for under $500 now? Here are links:

• Denon AVR-1910 7.1-Channel Home Theater Multi-Source/Multi-Zone Receiver, In Stock at OneCall.com <-- $549 minus a $50 coupon, brand new unit including shipping
• Denon AVR-1910 - Open Box 7.1-Channel Home Theater Multi-Source/Multi-Zone Receiver, In Stock at OneCall.com <-- open box version of the same receiver. Good as new with full manufacturer's warranty (currently $465.92)

Then you can just hook up your HDMI cable from any old player and let the receiver handle the audio decoding.

-CB