DMP-DB80 audio output better as analog or as HDMI?

[mettrick]

I just bought the DB80 and have hooked it up to my basement system which has a Pioneer Elite VSX-56txi (no HMDI inputs), driving Paradigm Speakers (studio V60 fronts, ultracube, cc590, 4 adp surrounds) ; I have connected both the 7.1 analog output, and optical to the reciever. The DB80 HDMI is connected to the TV (high clarity turned on, audio off). I can select either direct multichannel input on the reciever (no sound processing from the VSX) or digital input (which allows sound processing from the VSX). I think that with both audio connections the DB80 downcoverts a TrueHD 96/24 signal to a PCM 48/24 signal.

Just watched/listened to the Dave Matthews/Tim Renolds Blueray disc which has Dolby TrueHD. I seem to get a little richer sound from the optical input, which seems odd to me as I thought the DB80 would handle the TrueHD to analog conversion pretty well, and leads me to ask.......

I also have a Denon 3808ci on my family room system which I could switch with the VSX.

Is this worth doing??? Would I get any better sound by having the Denon recieve a TrueHD bitstream compared to the VSX receiving a compressed analog or optical input?

Thoughts? Am I missing something?

Thanks,
Mark

[MrBoylan]

Hello, Mark,

See answers below.

I just bought the BD80 and have hooked it up to my basement system which has a Pioneer Elite VSX-56txi (no HMDI inputs), driving Paradigm Speakers (studio V60 fronts, ultracube, cc590, 4 adp surrounds); I have connected both the 7.1 analog output, and optical to the reciever. The BD80 HDMI is connected to the TV (high clarity turned on, audio off). I can select either direct multichannel input on the reciever (no sound processing from the VSX) or digital input (which allows sound processing from the VSX). I think that with both audio connections the BD80 downcoverts a TrueHD 96/24 signal to a PCM 48/24 signal.

Not true. Using the analog outputs, assuming BD-Secondary Audio is OFF, the BD80 will expand any Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD 96/24 soundtrack to its underlying 96/24 PCM signal, then will decode this to analog with no loss. There is no need for the player to downconvert to 48 KHz sampling rate before converting to analog and doing so would negate the benefits of on-board decoding.

As for the S/PDIF digital outputs, if you set DTS and Dolby to PCM in the player, then you will get two-channel (stereo) PCM output but it still could be the full resolution 96/24 PCM assuming you didn't set PCM downconversion to ON. PCM over fiberoptic or coax S/PDIF outputs is limited to only two channels but it does support 96 KHz sampling rates and 24-bit precision.

If you set DTS and Dolby to bitstream, then you will get a Dolby Digital 5.1 companion track (640 KBPS) or the DTS core track (usually at 1504 KBPS) over coax and fiberoptic outputs, both of which are lossy mixes, but can still sound excellent through a good receiver.

Just watched/listened to the Dave Matthews/Tim Renolds Blueray disc which has Dolby TrueHD. I seem to get a little richer sound from the optical input, which seems odd to me as I thought the DB80 would handle the TrueHD to analog conversion pretty well, and leads me to ask.......

I also have a Denon 3808ci on my family room system which I could switch with the VSX.

Is this worth doing??? Would I get any better sound by having the Denon recieve a TrueHD bitstream compared to the VSX receiving a compressed analog or optical input?

Thoughts? Am I missing something?

Thanks,
Mark

Getting the sound of a multi-channel analog set-up to be just right can be a little tricky because everything is manual (no help from Audyssey or other auto-calibration software), and the settings on the player itself are pretty rudimentary (only level and distance settings). Also, in addition to compensating for speaker levels and distances automatically, some auto-calibration software adjusts EQ to compensate for room response variations. So the fiber optic or coax outputs of the BD80 will benefit from this because they go through the MCACC calibration settings on the receiver while the analog inputs do not.

If you haven't already read it, check out Peter O'Connell's article on setting up the multi-channel analog outputs of a BD player (and inputs on the receiver). It might be helpful to get the best possible sound quality.

How To Set up a Blu-ray Player Using Multi-Channel Analog Outputs... And Why: BigPictureBigSound

As for whether the sound will be better using the analog outputs of the player to the Pioneer's multi-channel analog inputs vs. using the HDMI outputs of the BD80 into that Denon receiver, you're comparing apples and oranges. There are several things that can influence the sound:

• the quality of the DACs on the Denon receiver vs. those on the BD80
• the amount of precision and the quality of adjustments made on the Denon receiver vs. the BD80
• the quality of the analog stage on the Denon vs. the Pioneer receiver and Panasonic player combination

My guess is that using HDMI from the BD80 to the Denon receiver (bitstreaming the native surround track to the receiver for decoding) will sound better overall than using analog to the Pioneer receiver, simply due to the more robust bass management and level calibration available on the Denon.

You should try it out and see which you like better. But be careful because the human ear is prone to prefer louder sounds over quiet ones. When you start comparing analog outputs/inputs decoded from DTS-HD or Dolby TrueHD with digital connections decoded from lossy DTS and Dolby Digital to digital connections decoded from the lossless source (DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD), the volume level of each of these different sources may be different at the same gain settings. It's difficult to do any valid A/B comparions when the levels are different, so give yourself some time to listen to each option before making any final decisions about which sounds "best."

Good luck!

-Chris

[DougW]

I have a older Denon AVR 3300 that does not have HDMI connectivity. My Pioneer plasma screen does. I'm not excited about having to use analog audio connections to achieve Dolby or DTS 5.1 and don't understand why the DB80 wouldn't enable those formats undiminished via coax or fiber. (Especially in contrast to my older Oppo 971H that does.) It seems counter intuitive to offering those outputs. Is this typical of most Blu-ray players? If it is not, is there another good player I should consider for integrating with my existing equipment?

I'm not sure I understand your diligent explanation for non HDMI connectivity to a receiver, but presume you were saying that the analog 5.1 dolby & dts output would be of better quality than using coax or fiber - am I understanding that correctly? (I'm not up on what True HD/DTS is and how that would matter with my AVR3300.)

I've held off buying the panny player until I can get a better understanding of how to best connect the audio to my AVR 3300. I will appreciate insights or comments.

Thanks,
-Doug

[MrBoylan]

I have a older Denon AVR 3300 that does not have HDMI connectivity. My Pioneer plasma screen does. I'm not excited about having to use analog audio connections to achieve Dolby or DTS 5.1 and don't understand why the BD80 wouldn't enable those formats undiminished via coax or fiber. (Especially in contrast to my older Oppo 971H that does.) It seems counter intuitive to offering those outputs. Is this typical of most Blu-ray players? If it is not, is there another good player I should consider for integrating with my existing equipment?

I think you may have misread of misunderstood my post. The Panasonic BD80 *does* offer standard Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS 5.1 "undiminished" over fiberoptic and coax outputs. What is does not and *cannot* offer via fiberoptic or coax S/PDIF outputs is Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio - new formats currently found only on Blu-ray Disc.

It is impossible to pass these new sound codecs in an undiminished bitstream format over a coax or fiberoptic bitstream output because S/PDIF interface simply doesn't support those formats or bandwidth. This has nothing to do with the player. The only way to get the full quality of Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD Master Audio (and multi-channel PCM for that matter) available on Blu-ray Disc is by passing these over HDMI to an HDMI-equipped receiver or decoding these formats on the player and passing a multi-channel analog signal to the receiver for amplification.

I'm not sure I understand your diligent explanation for non HDMI connectivity to a receiver, but presume you were saying that the analog 5.1 dolby & dts output would be of better quality than using coax or fiber - am I understanding that correctly?

No. If you're just talking about standard Dolby Digital or DTS surround sound (which is compressed using lossy compression, but can still produce high quality sound), then you have a choice: you can send these out over fiberoptic or coax outputs, *OR* you can decode them on-board the player and send them out over analog outputs. As to which is going to sound better, that depends on the quality of the DAC (Digital Analog Converter) in your receiver vs. those in the player.

(I'm not up on what True HD/DTS is and how that would matter with my AVR3300.)

Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio are new codecs, available on Blu-ray, which are of higher quality than the standard lossy Dolby Digital and DTS tracks available on DVD. The reason they're better is that they support higher sampling rates, more channels and higher precision (more bit depth), plus they use "lossless encoding" which means they can be bit for bit identical to the original uncompressed multi-channel PCM master tapes.

If you want to take advantage of these on your receiver, then you'll need to use the multi-channel analog outputs of the player and multi-channel inputs on your receiver. If you use the fiberoptic or coax outputs of the player instead, then DTS-HD Master Audio will be passed to your receiver as standard lossy DTS instead and Dolby TrueHD will be output to your receiver as standard Dolby Digital 5.1. Again, these won't sound bad - they just won't sound as good as they could if you were to decode the full lossless quality on the player or in an HDMI-equipped receiver.

I've held off buying the panny player until I can get a better understanding of how to best connect the audio to my AVR 3300. I will appreciate insights or comments.

Thanks,
-Doug

The simplest connection from the BD80 to your receiver would be to use the fiberoptic or coax digital outputs of the player into the receiver. If you do this, then you'll get standard DTS output from DTS or DTS-HD soundtracks, and standard Dolby Digital from Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby TrueHD recordings. Where you will have issues is if you get a Blu-ray Disc that has a multi-channel PCM soundtrack. This is passed over coax or fiber as two-channel PCM instead of the 5.1 or 7.1 surround that is available on the Blu-ray Disc. Again, not a limitation of the BD80, but a limitation of the S/PDIF digital format.

The highest quality connection from the player to your receiver would be multi-channel analog as this would allow the player to decode DTS-HD, Dolby TrueHD and multi-channel PCM to high quality multi-channel analog output. But as mentioned previously, this can be a little tricky to configure and get set up properly. What some people in your situation do is use the fiber or coax outputs *IN ADDITION TO* the analog outputs. This way, you can select the digital input on your receiver for standard DVDs and use the multi-channel analog input when watching/listening to Blu-ray Discs.

The DMP-BD80 is superior to many other Blu-ray players in that it offers level and delay adjustments in the analog output set-up menus, and it allows you to use the multi-channel analog and multi-channel digital coax/fiber outputs at the same time. The Pioneer BDP-320, for example, supports one or the other, but not both.

Another player you could consider would be the LG BD 390. The BD 390's video quality is about on par with the Panasonic player, but it offers more streaming features than the Panasonic player (Netflix, YouTube, CinemaNow and VUDU) as well as built-in WiFi. Also, the BD 390 offers a "DTS-Reencode" option that will take any soundtrack, including DTS-HD, Dolby TrueHD and multi-channel PCM, and will output these as high quality 1.5MBPS standard DTS 5.1 soundtrack over fiberoptic or coax output for decoding on your receiver. It also includes multi-channel analog outputs in case you want to get a higher quality sound from DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD soundtracks.

The Samsung BD-P3600 is also worthy of consideration as it has similar features to the BD 390 (except for the Vudu and CinemaNow streaming). It also has a DTS re-encode option to output everything as 1.5 MBPS DTS surround as well as WiFi connectivity via an included USB dongle.

All 3 players are on sale on Amazon with great pricing:

• LG BD 390 Network Blu-ray Disc Player
• Panasonic DMP-BD80 High Clarity Audio Blu-ray Disc Player
• Samsung BD-P3600 Blu-ray Disc Player

Hope that helps.

-Chris

[DougW]

Wow - thanks Chris for your patient and easy to understand reply to my questions. Very helpful.

I have a Pioneer Kuro PDP5020 plasma and if I go to Blu ray I'd like to be able to take advantage of 24fps ans well as 1080p. Are the 3 machines you suggested equally adept in this regard? Wi-Fi is not that big a deal for me, as I think I could do a direct ethernet connection.

Thanks,
-Doug

[MrBoylan]

Wow - thanks Chris for your patient and easy to understand reply to my questions. Very helpful.

I have a Pioneer Kuro PDP5020 plasma and if I go to Blu ray I'd like to be able to take advantage of 24fps ans well as 1080p. Are the 3 machines you suggested equally adept in this regard? Wi-Fi is not that big a deal for me, as I think I could do a direct ethernet connection.

Thanks,
-Doug

Hi, Doug,

Actually of these players, the only one that supports 1080p/24 output from standard DVDs is the Panasonic BD80 and it has to be selected on a per-title basis in the Display menu once the movie is playing back. The LG and Samsung players output standard DVDs at 60 Hz leaving it up to your TV to detect the 2:3 cadence and potentially correct for it (or you may get some judder on DVDs). All of the these support 1080p/24 output on film-based Blu-ray Discs (or 1080p/60 output for titles that are mastered at 1080i/60).

The OPPO BDP-83 also has 24 FPS output from standard DVDs and this is a global setting in the set-up menu. It's also worth considering - very quick and high performance, but absolutely no IPTV capabilities (no Netflix, VUDU, YouTube, Amazon or any of the other goodies). Still a great player though, and it also plays SACD and DVD-Audio discs if that is important to you.

Here's the link:

Amazon.com: OPPO BDP-83 Blu-ray Disc Player with SACD & DVD-Audio: Electronics

BTW, if you use any of the links in the forum or on our main web site, then BPBS makes a referral commission. Helps keep the site up and running!

Good luck!

-Chris

[DougW]

Thanks for the additional clarification, Chris. IPTV is not a deal breaker for me. As an Oppo user owner already, my first choice would be the BDP-83 were it not for the price. We rarely watch DVDs more than a couple times a month so I cannot justify paying 2.5x more for the Oppo than the Panny. (Though I really do like Oppo!)

If the holiday budget permits I'll probably go with the Panny and may be back in touch for set-up questions.

Your help is awesome. Have a great Thanksgiving.

-Doug

[MrBoylan]

If the holiday budget permits I'll probably go with the Panny and may be back in touch for set-up questions.

Your help is awesome. Have a great Thanksgiving.

-Doug

OK. Cool. I just put together a buyer's guide to deals on current Blu-ray players here:

Top Blu-ray Player Deals for 2009: A Blu-ray Buyer's Guide: BigPictureBigSound

I did not include the OPPO because it really isn't discounted online so it's hard to classify it as a "deal" but really, even at $499, with its support for SACD and DVD-Audio, it's hard to beat, so I think I am going to add it.

-CB

[DougW]

If the holiday budget permits I'll probably go with the Panny and may be back in touch for set-up questions.

Your help is awesome. Have a great Thanksgiving.

-Doug

Have been tracking Panny BD-80 for a few weeks. When I started it was around $175 at Amazon. I was anticipating it either going lower toward Christmas or them adding free DVDs. Instead the price crept up to $181, then $190s and changing suppliers. Today it is $280(!) and yet another supplier. I have also searched from other name/reputable suppliers listed on BPBS for the past weeks and saw parallel price increases.

What gives - is Panasonic all of a sudden backlogged on orders or are they deliberately holding back supplies?

[MrBoylan]

Have been tracking Panny BD-80 for a few weeks. When I started it was around $175 at Amazon. I was anticipating it either going lower toward Christmas or them adding free DVDs. Instead the price crept up to $181, then $190s and changing suppliers. Today it is $280(!) and yet another supplier. I have also searched from other name/reputable suppliers listed on BPBS for the past weeks and saw parallel price increases.

What gives - is Panasonic all of a sudden backlogged on orders or are they deliberately holding back supplies?

If it's anything like last year with the BD35 and BD55, Panasonic may have underestimated demand on the BD80 and so it may get harder to find at a discount. You can get one at TigerDirect for free, well sort of. It's free if you buy a 65-inch Panasonic 1080p Plasma for $2679.98:

Panasonic TC-P65S1 Viera 65" Class Plasma HDTV and Panasonic DMP-BD80K Blu-ray Disc Player Bundle at TigerDirect.com

But on Amazon, it looks like none of the legit 3rd party vendors have any of the BD80s in stock right now.

You can order it on Electronics Expo for $199 but they currently will not ship the item online - you'd need to pick it up at one of their NJ locations:

Panasonic Blu-ray Player - DMP-BD80

I know Panasonic's big push for 2010 is going to be 3D: 3D HDTVs and most likely 3D-capable Blu-ray Players. But what's unclear is how long it will take to get these finalized and made available. So it's possible current inventory on the BD60 and BD80 will be all there is. Or it's possible they will make more BD80s if there is sufficient demand.

BTW, this post is just me speculating based on public statements Panasonic has made at trade shows, etc., not based on any insider knowledge.