B&K Reference 50 HDMI Integration

[bob.baker]

This is my first ever post to a discussion thread... so please be patient.

I just completed a home theater that includes a JVC RS1 projector & OPPO BDP-83 Player. I have ~1K CDs including SACDs & DVD-As & slew of DVDs & Blue Rays. My A/V processor is a B&K Reference 50. My audio system is 7.2 channels with NHT speakers (3.3s, AC2, L5s) & 2 SVS subs. Amplification is a Parasound HCA3500 for the fronts, B&K Reference 7250II for the center/surrounds & a Samson for the 2 subs. I'm trying to decide whether to upgrade my processor to something HDMI compatible (Anthem, B&K Ref. 70, Integra...) or get by with my Reference 50.

If I stay w/ the Ref. 50, do I hook up the OPPO directly to the RS1 via HDMI & bypass the Ref. 50? I know this means I'll lose switching capability automatically thru the 50. Also, what will I lose by connecting the OPPO to the 50 via 6 RCAs (5.1) rather than HDMI. Since there are only RCA connections for 5.1 on the 50, I know I'll lose the analog for the remaining 2 channels of the 7. I'm also confused as to what information the optical digital link between the OPPO & 50 actually provides; i.e. which digital formats & at what quality? I've invested quite a bit in components & the room & really want to get the best two-channel sound & movies experience possible.

Finally, if I do upgrade to an HDMI compatible processor, seems like an Anthem D2V is my best choice, although it's really pricey, even used. What would I lose going with either a used Ref. 70 or Integra DHC 9.8 or 9.9? I've got a daughter in college, so I can't go crazy... yet ;o)

Sorry for the long post. BOB

[MrBoylan]

Originally Posted by bob.baker

This is my first ever post to a discussion thread... so please be patient.

Hi, Bob, and welcome to the forum!

I just completed a home theater that includes a JVC RS1 projector & OPPO BDP-83 Player. I have ~1K CDs including SACDs & DVD-As & slew of DVDs & Blue Rays. My A/V processor is a B&K Reference 50. My audio system is 7.2 channels with NHT speakers (3.3s, AC2, L5s) & 2 SVS subs. Amplification is a Parasound HCA3500 for the fronts, B&K Reference 7250II for the center/surrounds & a Samson for the 2 subs. I'm trying to decide whether to upgrade my processor to something HDMI compatible (Anthem, B&K Ref. 70, Integra...) or get by with my Reference 50.

That's some great gear! I would recommend making the most of what you have now, and seeing how you like it before upgrading to an HDMI-audio-compatible preamp/processor.

If I stay w/ the Ref. 50, do I hook up the OPPO directly to the RS1 via HDMI & bypass the Ref. 50? I know this means I'll lose switching capability automatically thru the 50.

If the Reference 50 has HDMI passthrough for the video, then you really lose nothing by switching the signal through it. The video signal is digital and nothing is added to or subtracted from it going this route.

Also, what will I lose by connecting the OPPO to the 50 via 6 RCAs (5.1) rather than HDMI. Since there are only RCA connections for 5.1 on the 50, I know I'll lose the analog for the remaining 2 channels of the 7.

The new surround codecs and formats available on Blu-ray Disc (DTS-HD, Dolby TrueHD and multi-channel PCM) can be handled properly one of three ways:

1. Bitstreamed via HDMI - no decoding on the player, just pass-through to HDMI audio-equipped receiver or processor
2. Internal decoding to multi-channel PCM - in this case the player extracts the underlying PCM track embedded in the DTS-HD or Dolby TrueHD stream and expands it to multi-channel PCM - this also requires HDMI to be transmitted to a receiver or preamp/processor equipped with HDMI audio. It's only useful for receivers and pre/pros with limited (HDMI 1.1 or HDMI 1.2) audio support.
3. Internal decoding to multi-channel analog - in this case the player decodes the signal all the way to multi-channel analog, for transmission to a pre/pro or receiver over analog cables (as will be the case with your set-up)

None of the above approaches is "better" than another in that all of these variations support the full bandwidth and quality of the lossless high bandwidth surround formats. So you don't really lose anything by doing it this way. However, what you do lack is the ability to take full advantage of the bass management, level adjustments, EQ and delays that may be built into your receiver or pre/pro. You need to adjust bass management delays and levels in the player itself because most receivers and pre/pros (including the Ref 50) cannot apply this processing to their multi-channel analog inputs.

*BUT* the good news is that the Reference 50 *CAN* apply Dolby PLIIx to the incoming 5.1-channel signal and extract a matrixed style set of rear channels for 7.1. So you can get sound out of your rear speakers, while using the 5.1-channel input, if you like. This is actually the default DVD-Audio mode on the Ref 50. You can also disable this if you only want to get sound to the main 5.1 channels instead. DVD-Audio, SACD, nearly all DVDs and most Blu-ray Discs are mixed for 5.1 surround, and the ones that are mixed for 6.1 or 7.1 should still sound pretty good with this set-up.

So really it's just a question of whether the digital audio decoding, bass management and level adjustments in the player are any better or worse than the those in the receiver or preamp/processor. I haven't done too much listening yet of the analog outputs of the BDP-83, but if it's like earlier OPPO players, it should be very good.

I'm also confused as to what information the optical digital link between the OPPO & 50 actually provides; i.e. which digital formats & at what quality? I've invested quite a bit in components & the room & really want to get the best two-channel sound & movies experience possible.

Optical (S/PDIF) is limited to legacy "lossy" 5.1 Dolby Digital, 5.1 DTS (or 6.1 DTS with the EX extensions), and 2-channel PCM. A 1.5 MBPS lossy DTS mix or a full 640 KBPS lossy Dolby Digital mix can still sound excellent but it is a step down from the full lossless surround codecs like Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD Master Audio and even DVD-Audio's MLP (Meridian Lossless Packing) format for that matter.

The OPPO can actually output over HDMI (as well as internally decode) not only DTS-HD, PCM and Dolby TrueHD, but also DSD (Direct Stream Digital on SACD) and DVD-Audio's MLP formats. Keep that in mind if and when you decide to upgrade your preamp/processor because some pre/pros (like the Integras) do support on-board decoding of DVD-Audio and SACD/DSD digital audio signals over HDMI. I don't think the Anthem piece has its own on-board DSD decoder.

Finally, if I do upgrade to an HDMI compatible processor, seems like an Anthem D2V is my best choice, although it's really pricey, even used. What would I lose going with either a used Ref. 70 or Integra DHC 9.8 or 9.9? I've got a daughter in college, so I can't go crazy... yet ;o)

Sorry for the long post. BOB

If I were you, I'd stay with what I had, at least for now. Get yourself some high quality RCA interconnects, calibrate and tweak the analog outputs of the OPPO player as much as you can. Play around with it, see how you like the sound and then upgrade to something more HDMI-friendly if you feel that the sound of this system is lacking.

Good luck!

-Chris

[bob.baker]

Chris,

Your follow-up to my post is invaluable. Can't tell you how much I appreciate your expertise... saved me a bunch of time & a good deal of angst, fretting about whether to spend the $$$ for an upgrade.

Taking your advice & sticking with the Ref. 50 for now. I'll post to the Thread & let everyone know how things go tweaking the OPPO.

[MrBoylan]

Originally Posted by bob.baker

Chris,

Your follow-up to my post is invaluable. Can't tell you how much I appreciate your expertise... saved me a bunch of time & a good deal of angst, fretting about whether to spend the $$$ for an upgrade.

Taking your advice & sticking with the Ref. 50 for now. I'll post to the Thread & let everyone know how things go tweaking the OPPO.

Cool. Glad it helped. I do seem to recall somewhere in the dim dark past that someone may have reported a problem with B&K receivers/pre-pros relating to the higher bandwidth 640 KBPS Dolby Digital tracks that accompany Dolby TrueHD tracks on Blu-ray Disc (for backwards compatibility).

Like some early Sony, JVC and (apparently) KEF products, some early B&K models also have trouble with the 640 KBPS Dolby Digital soundtracks. The problem stems from the fact that DVDs were capped at 442 KBPS for Dolby Digital soundtracks even though the Dolby Digital spec itself supports up to 640 KBPS. So some of the early Dolby Digital decoding chips only worked up to 442 KBPS and no one realized this until Blu-ray came out with its 640 KBPS Dolby Digital sound.

Not sure if your specific model (Ref 50) is affected but the good news is that even if it is, you probably still will not have any problems because you'll be using the ANALOG inputs. This problem only affects the digital (S/PDIF) fiberoptic or coax connections because it concerns the internal Dolby Digital decoder.

Some people who use the multi-channel analog inputs/outputs *ALSO* use the fiberoptic or coax digital outputs of their player. They do this in order to take advantage of calibration, EQ, and bass management features on their non-HDMI receiver when listening to CDs and DVDs. So if you do happen to hook things up this way (using both digital and multi-channel analog), then be sure to use the multi-channel analog inputs for Blu-ray Disc viewing/listening and you shouldn't run into this problem.

Later,

-CB